send the collected money in any Ukrainiane children's house - it will be more large benefit for Ukrainian nation
an exception, if the fates of animals doesnot worry you more than children's
Well there you go.. Now you can start your own topic about the Plite of Ukrainain Children.
Or maybe you never paid any attention to the one I started a month ago
admin USA-Oregon 3247 days with LL 349 posts in Forum
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759 days ago 24 Oct 2007 14:44
However to put animal welfare before social welfare , poverty and disease invites discussion and would horrify and disgust many people who are directly involved and affected by the latter .
It could reasonably amaze and embitter any individual or family that is deprived of food , clothes , adequate health provision and care , and the means to raise their life above subsistence level .
You probably misunderstood the whole idea of this program,
LL is not an animal right activist who does not distinguish between human beings and animals or put animals right and benefits before human.
The animal welfare philosophy is fundamentally different from the animal rights philosophy, since it endorses the responsible use of animals to satisfy certain human needs. These range from companionship and sport, to uses which involve the taking of life, such as for food, clothing and medical research.
Animal welfare means ensuring that all animals used by humans have their basic needs fulfilled in terms of food, shelter and health, and that they experience no unnecessary suffering in providing for human needs.
If you read the program attentively, you understand that this is not a battle field for "Animals & Humans: Who matters more?" discussion. The main point of the petition and the whole program is animal anti-cruelty, humane methods of stabilizing the strays population etc.
Part of LL income goes to different charities, social and animal, if some of you has been supporting other causes, you are more than welcome to use this forum to post information, start your own petition, do something - we will only appreciate it. And of course, it will be up to members of this site to get involved or not.
So back to the main issue - animal and sure, human abuse, is a terrible thing, and they are very well connected. Children, who witnessed the most animal cruelty and violence against one another in their homes, they learn from everything the parents do and may act upon it later on in life.
Study conducted in USA in 1995 noted that 32% of the pet-owning victims of domestic abuse reported that one or more of their children had hurt or killed a pet. Similarly, a 1983 study noted that children were reported to be abusive to animals in more than a third of a sample of pet-owning families.
And besides the point, we are animal lovers and find it important not to stay indifferent.
As for the Gostomel Shelter in Ukraine, as we said before anyone who is able to help, please, do so. We have seen the Shelter ourselves, we have personally met the owner and the volunteers, we can guarantee that all money donated will be spent with care and purpose, for food, shelter, spray/neuter and meds. Those who can not - no hard feelings, we understand, and there is truly no need to explain yourselves.
Good job, LL! We must stop it! But why only in Ukraine?
Thank you! Our company helps different shelters and organizations in different countries and only not to spread the focus at the moment we are concentrating on Ukraine. But we welcome our members to do a research, start their own topics and post information about the situation in their countries.
Also in other countries than Ukraine there is plenty homeless cats and dogs. When i tell LL members there are no street animals ( some cats yes ) they become surprised.
To tell the truth, its better to reduce the population very heavy by taking them out in a human way of course.
That dont mean people shall not feed them. its good they do
ADMIN !! better start Donate money for street kids than street animals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and..... send the collected money in any Ukrainiane children's house - it will be more large benefit for Ukrainian nation
an exception, if the fates of animals doesnot worry you more than children's
Unfortunately i am allovded just to give u one TU, Lora. I am 100% agree with you
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scuba_god USA-Washington 1507 days with LL 48 posts in Forum
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759 days ago 24 Oct 2007 16:16
North003
so your way, I see is do nothing, stay away from any noble cause, and plus tell those who's trying to do someth,
to donate their own money to someth else, didn't you read it, they do, they do as much as they can.
LL - good job!
my family helps our local P A W S and I will be happy to help those poor pooches in Ukraine.
I'll be signing the petition and I'll send a small donation.
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scuba_god USA-Washington 1507 days with LL 48 posts in Forum
There was another situation before with some help needed. And we have the same talkers. The talked last time too. Go on, talk.
Anyone here wants to tell me that by helping innocent animals I mistreat Ukrainian children...
Well, say that in my face and explain yourself. You ave no idea about my relationships with children and you know nothing we do.
When I say my face, I mean all of us. All who have signed and will sign the petition, or donate, or write a letter, or simly show this topic to people who could be interested. You could post the link here on your site, etc.
I did not watch a single clip provided in this topic (i mean the animal rights page) (i'm not sure but i think there were videos). I did not look at photos (if there were any). I know that would be something i really know myself.
Maybe you, guys, saying that LL is doing a wrong thing here want to watch it. And then tell me what kind of children will grow up happy if they know this is going on? Children should live in a world where every God's thing is respected and treated with love.
I'll add "when i thought you weren't looking" here again, even though i've posted it somewhen.
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MacFatum Sweden 2036 days with LL 5795 posts in Forum
I think what admin is doing here is great,if people want to help the children admin has already said they have no objections.Of course it sad about the children but it's also sad about the animals and this is a way to do something about it.
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MacFatum Sweden 2036 days with LL 5795 posts in Forum
A message every adult should read, because children are watching you and
doing as you do, not as you say.
When you thought I wasn't looking, I saw you hang my first painting on the
refrigerator and I immediately wanted to paint another one.
When you thought I wasn't looking I saw you feed a stray cat, and I learned
that it was good to be kind to animals.
When you thought I wasn't looking, I saw you make my favorite cake for me
and I learned that the little things can be the special things in life.
When you thought I wasn't looking I heard you say a prayer, and I knew there
is a God I could always talk to and I learned to trust in God.
When you thought I wasn't looking, I saw you make a meal and take it to a
friend who was sick, and I learned that we all have to help take care of
each other.
When you thought I wasn't looking, I saw you give of your time and money to
help people who had nothing and I learned that those who have something
should give to those who don't.
When you thought I wasn't looking, I saw you take care of our house and
everyone in it and I learned we have to take care of what we are given.
When you thought I wasn't looking, I saw how you handled your
responsibilities, even when you didn't feel good and I learned that I would
have to be responsible when I grow up.
When you thought I wasn't looking, I saw tears come from your eyes and I
learned that sometimes things hurt, but it's all right to cry.
When you thought I wasn't looking, I saw that you cared and I wanted to be
everything that I could be.
When you thought I wasn't looking, I learned most of life's lessons that I
need to know to be a good and productive person when I grow up.
When you thought I wasn't looking, I looked at you and wanted to say,
Thanks for all the things I saw when you thought I wasn't looking.'
Each of us (parent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, teacher or friend) influences
the life of a child. How will you touch the life of someone today?
Way to go, Lulu!! Just because we can't do everything for everyone does not mean that we can't try to help a little where we can, especially for causes that happen to touch our own hearts in a particular way. As an animal lover, this one hits me where I live, and I will most certainly help.
I have seen the hundreds of stray cats in Sevastopol, and it is hard to overcome the desire to want to take each of them in. Here in Kharkov, there is a big problem with stray dogs, many of which run in packs. I saw some terrible things done by dogs in packs on Guam, but these just seem to be mostly nuisances, rather than dangerous. Still, it is sad to see a dirty, mangy feral mother dog that is desparately searching the park near Sovetskaya for scraps of food for some pups she has hidden somewhere closeby.
I have not actually seen the brutal killing of strays here, but I have heard stories from friends that echo what Admin and others here have said. There are much more humane ways to control the problem.
On a side note, I have developed a friendship with a young cat that lives in my apartment building here. She is probably not quite a year old, and she has a deformed right rear leg. She does not seem to be in pain, but she can't walk or run properly. But she is a sweetheart, who enjoys a little head rub and some kind words when I see her in the stairway. And, of course, when I can, I give her a few treats.
Often, animals are a LOT better than so many people... so they get my vote.
Paul (who also believes in dropping change in the cups of the poor babushkas in the metro stations)
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waitin4ulove USA-Michigan 2167 days with LL 4888 posts in Forum
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759 days ago 24 Oct 2007 18:39
Most of us agree that doing SOMETHING is better than doing nothing at all.
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IamElvis USA-Tennessee 1254 days with LL 9093 posts in Forum
MacFatum:
There was another situation before with some help needed. And we have the same talkers. The talked last time too. Go on, talk.
Anyone here wants to tell me that by helping innocent animals I mistreat Ukrainian children...
Well, say that in my face and explain yourself. You ave no idea about my relationships with children and you know nothing we do.
When I say my face, I mean all of us. All who have signed and will sign the petition, or donate, or write a letter, or simly show this topic to people who could be interested. You could post the link here on your site, etc.
I did not watch a single clip provided in this topic (i mean the animal rights page) (i'm not sure but i think there were videos). I did not look at photos (if there were any). I know that would be something i really know myself.
Maybe you, guys, saying that LL is doing a wrong thing here want to watch it. And then tell me what kind of children will grow up happy if they know this is going on? Children should live in a world where every God's thing is respected and treated with love.
I'll add "when i thought you weren't looking" here again, even though i've posted it somewhen.
There are 1000s of good causes and different people are meant for different things, (We) You and I are animal lovers this is our calling. Someone else can help another cause we can't do it all.
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LonesomeDave USA-Washington 1325 days with LL 91 posts in Forum
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759 days ago 24 Oct 2007 20:55
My survey of the stray dog situation in Ukraine:
Odessa: Lots of stray dogs and even more cats!
Kiev lots of stray dogs, but limited to certain areas.
Zaparozhye: No stray animals. Not even one! If I were a PETA member, I would wonder what is going on there...
Vinnitsa: Lots of stray dogs and cats
Donetsk & Dnepr: I didn't particularly notice anything, but there weren't many strays.
Highways: Stray dog behind each gas station and roadside attraction, but a few high volume bus stops could boast at as many as three half starved, animals. Don't try to pet them, they are mean (mostly.)
I recommend a walk early in the morning, very early, to check out the situation with strays.
Sometimes you can see thin dogs, dumb with hunger, just lying in the middle of big, busy, urban, public squares, hoping for some scraps, or a lucky break.
But, if you really want to feel sorry for animals, you can have a real pityfest by just visiting the Odessa zoo. You might want to call in advance, because it might be shut down for good, any day now!
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malina-84 Ukraine 816 days with LL 2 posts in Forum
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759 days ago 24 Oct 2007 22:13
I from Dnepropetrovsk and in the center you not óâèäåòå homeless animals, ñàíýïèäåìñòàíöèÿ clean the center from animals, but on surburbs absolutely on another, in area where I live many cats and dogs, it is awful, poor animals eternally hungry in searches though what meal, this situation it is necessary to change that! Thanks for the initiative!
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jimsan UK-Scotland 1294 days with LL 6022 posts in Forum
when i said we cannot help everyone i was in no way suggesting that because of this we do nothing and i am surprised and shocked that some of you seemed to think this.
so your way, I see is do nothing, stay away from any noble cause, and plus tell those who's trying to do someth,
to donate their own money to someth else, didn't you read it, they do, they do as much as they can.
LL - good job!
my family helps our local P A W S and I will be happy to help those poor pooches in Ukraine.
I'll be signing the petition and I'll send a small donation.
Scuba god.
Better you get your head up over water for a while, and dont start telling what you believe my opinion is.
Go on, put yourself at the LL list, but why do u need to tell me that - and why do you need to tell me i do wrong because i have another opinion and choose not to do??????????
I dont need to shout out for whole world / or in LL that i do something for others - but since u asked if i do something - i have given money to (some ) children without parents for many years - and will continue. And i have also bought food to street animals when i visited eastern europe.
I think i understand the way you see things, the US is the the only country i knew about who got an own "police force to help animal ( Animal planet ). And i would like very much to tell u what mean those money instead should been used at - but it is not my case.
Nowadays ppl "" believe steaks and T-bones and other meat grows in threes and from there goes to the supermarket "". Children paint pictures of chicken with 6 legs because there are 6 in the boxes from MacDonalds. Wh`?? That is because we dont live close to the nature anymore, - the nature where both life and death are normal behaviors and it is normal to kill a animal for food. And it is also normal to kill animals when population grow to big.
Sorry - this is they way it is.
This mean not that you/me not shall love animals- i have had 2 dogs myself - but animals are not human beings, even ppl try to give them human feelings.
So i can tell strait away - i will not give money for taking care of street animals in Ukraine, i think this will not make the problems lesser.
Because it is a PROBLEM with all those wild animals around. Visit Bucharesti, go out in evening and u will understand what i mean. But there is a PROBLEM with homeless kids too, and therefor i choose to give my money for some of those instead.
So sorry ppl- - my opinion is still that it would be better giving money to work out plan for reducing the population of street dogs and street cats so close to zero as possible.
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ramonrive UK-England 899 days with LL 4541 posts in Forum
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758 days ago 25 Oct 2007 04:14
I would be astounded if there was one person here who is neutral toward any form of cruelty or neglect toward either people or animals .
I have heard no one suggest that anyone should not have the right to choose how they wish to dispose of their own money .
Therefore , neither of these matters is an issue . So stop talking ( some contributors only , as if they are )
And anybody believing that their public outpourings of anger and hurt somehow makes them more sensitive and charitable is guilty of arrogance and intellectual dishonesty .
The point at issue , imho --- and after agreeing that anybody can do whatever they personally believe or wish , is what is the best way to help a situation both short and long term ?
And there is plenty of evidence that the idea under discussion is hopeless as a long term solution .
Such thinking is now endorsed by every responsible fund raising body in the world for longer term relief and aid for human beings .
Throwing money at terrible situations per se to cure fundamental long term causes is virtually useless .
It seems that the main thing it does is make some people feel much better about themselves and their assumed kind and caring natures .
Not so long ago when we saw outrage in Africa , for example , we all used to throw money into a pot and consider the matter well done .
Then the experts told us that little money was ever getting to the front line and then all it did was keep people alive ( fine ) but nothing to solve basic problems .
In contrast , we now target a village , say , and find them a clean water source ( drill a well ) and get land irrigated so they can start toward a path of independence .
We can do this successfully because people can sometimes think and work together .
Animals need us to think for them and condemning future unborn generations to repeat type existences is degrading and inhuman DESPITE the good intentions involved .
It is antisocial to have dogs running round with no homes and no responsible owner .
They are a nuisance and can be far worse than that individually or in small packs .
They also defecate indiscriminately .
They smell and are invariably sources for fleas and disease .
Why on earth should they be on any street unattended ?
Round them up and if they cannot be found good homes or are claimed within a defined period , they are humanely destroyed .
That's our system and we are continually cited as the greatest nation of animal lovers on the planet .
The most Cats I have ever had at one time was 7 and in the late seventies and eighties I owned around 20 dogs at any one time , although the majority were in racing trainer's hands and maybe only around half a dozen on my property where I had a Stud interest ( breeding ) and reared litters of racing animals to the highest of standards . I therefore talk with experience .
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MacFatum Sweden 2036 days with LL 5795 posts in Forum
jimsan:
when i said we cannot help everyone i was in no way suggesting that because of this we do nothing and i am surprised and shocked that some of you seemed to think this.
I did not say anything about you personally, jimsan. Because of lack of self esteem you just lost a friend. I never thought or did anything bad about you or to you. Thanks for a TD. You only gave 12 and one of them is mine. Because i care about animals. Bye-bye, friend.
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IamElvis USA-Tennessee 1254 days with LL 9093 posts in Forum
admin USA-Oregon 3247 days with LL 349 posts in Forum
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758 days ago 25 Oct 2007 12:19
send the collected money in any Ukrainiane children's house - it will be more large benefit for Ukrainian nation
an exception, if the fates of animals doesnot worry you more than children's
ADMIN !! better start Donate money for street kids than street animals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Below there are two companies in Ukraine - The “Modus Vivendi” Club which works with quite a few handicapped children schools and homes all over Ukraine and Dnepropetrovsk City Orphanage # 1
We know them both and have donated to them before:
you are welcome to send your donations either directly or you can sure send it via LL and we will be happy to start a new topic about our members helping orphanages in Ukraine.
So, let us keep this current topic to the main issue - animal welfare, there is absolutely no need to give LL recommendations on how to spend our charity budget.
To post about charity for children, HIV victims etc, please, open a new topic.
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IamElvis USA-Tennessee 1254 days with LL 9093 posts in Forum
Well there you go A big T.U. for Admin and now a APOLOGY from the NAY-SAYERS (that means all of YOU that Second guessed Admin)
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admin USA-Oregon 3247 days with LL 349 posts in Forum
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758 days ago 25 Oct 2007 13:07
North003
So i can tell strait away - i will not give money for taking care of street animals in Ukraine, i think this will not make the problems lesser.
So sorry ppl- - my opinion is still that it would be better giving money to work out plan for reducing the population of street dogs and street cats so close to zero as possible.
ramonrive
And there is plenty of evidence that the idea under discussion is hopeless as a long term solution
Guys, some of your posts give us the impression you only scanned fast
this page http://www.luckylovers.net/petrescue.html without actually reading it. Somehow you managed to avoid discussing the whole issue and stick to only one point - money.
For those who did not read the whole program, let us make it clear again
humane methods of the strays population control are:
- euthanasia
- spray and neuter
Many countries are still using inhumane methods of stray animals population control, Ukraine is one of them. Please, read just one the following paragraph from our program:
Stray dogs are often bludgeoned or put to death by electricity or caught using an inhumane poison and sometimes die slow, painful deaths. Instead of putting an animal to sleep with the use of euthanasia (i.e. the act of killing an animal painlessly), the animal service uses dithylinum (suxamethonium chloride), a poison which paralyzes the animal and causes it to die of suffocation in a few hours of agony. There is ample evidence that the poor creatures are still conscious and feel all the pain before they die. It is often the case that animals are beaten with legs and metal sticks,
whereupon they are buried or burned alive.
Authorities of small Ukrainian communities for ever used and are still using different kind of poison - rat poison and recently they "discovered" a new method of killing stray animals - Isoniazidum (Tubazidum) anti-tuberculosis drug causing cheap, but very slow and painful death.
This problem can NOT be solved by one shelter or even a group of activists, it can ONLY be solved by the government. The government of Ukraine unfortunately like many others does not recognize lots of problems, unless pushed by the press or European union or international organizations etc. The government of Ukraine (or any other country) should be well aware of the problem impact on the worldwide community.
This is why we asked you (please, read just a few more lines)
Keep this issue in the public eye. Make them aware and make them act!
But unfortunately we do not even see many people signing a petition, while we see hot discussions what other major problems in the world or FSU are, criticism of LL actions, and the firm refusal to donate money to some real people who devoted their lives to make this world a better place, for kids and adults and animals.
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IamElvis USA-Tennessee 1254 days with LL 9093 posts in Forum
Rescue me ... not only with your hands
But with your heart,
I will respond to you.
Rescue me ... not out of pity
But out of love,
I will love you back.
Rescue me ... not with self-righteousness
But with compassion,
I will learn what you teach.
Rescue me ... not because of my past
But because of my future,
I will relax and enjoy.
Rescue me ... not simply to save me
But to give me a new life,
I will appreciate your gift.
Rescue me ... not only with a firm hand
But with tolerance and patience,
I will please you.
Rescue me ... not only because of who I am
But who I'm to become,
I will grow and mature.
Rescue me ... not to revere yourself to others
But because you want me,
I will never let you down.
Rescue me ... not with a hidden agenda
But with a desire to teach me to trust,
I will be loyal and true.
Rescue me ... not to be chained or to fight
But to be your companion,
I will stand by your side.
Rescue me ... not to replace one you've lost
But to soothe your spirit,
I will cherish you.
Rescue me ... not to be your pet
But to be your friend,
I will give you unconditional love.
Please ...
Rescue Me!
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MODERATOR Lithuania 2056 days with LL 325 posts in Forum
757 days ago 26 Oct 2007 06:22
all offtop has been removed,
please, no flooding in this topic.
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admin USA-Oregon 3247 days with LL 349 posts in Forum
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757 days ago 26 Oct 2007 10:08
Petition is targeting Ukrainian government and when we reach certain amount of signatures, it will be sent to the presidential office, main political parties and departments (like department of tourism, agriculture etc)
if you click on the link "letter" under a dog picture on the petition you will read the petition itself:
We, the undersigned, call upon the Ukrainian government to stop slaughtering stray and wild animals and bring the treatment of animals in Ukraine up to the standards of Western Europe and the rest of civilized world by:
Enforce existing animal protection laws in all ukrainian regions for all Ukrainian animals
Establish adequate animal shelters, operated and enforced on humane principles
Implement a nation-wide government supported spray and neuter program for stray animals
Prosecute animal abusers
Develop and implement education programs on responsible pet ownership
Develop and implement environmental education programs
Have an international animal Rights/Welfare organization continually monitor the progress towards the objectives.
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scuba_god USA-Washington 1507 days with LL 48 posts in Forum
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757 days ago 26 Oct 2007 22:21
North003
So sorry ppl- - my opinion is still that it would be better giving money to work out plan for reducing the population of street dogs and street cats so close to zero as possible.
sorry, dude, but this's pristine hypocrisy, here's a good plan in work already.
anyway, guys the last time I've checked there were 16 signatures only, if you care about animals spend a few minutes and sign the petition.
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MarkusMJ Netherlands 1775 days with LL 203 posts in Forum
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756 days ago 27 Oct 2007 11:21
I think the Ukrainians are not that bad with animals.
Take a look at China !
enjoy
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ramonrive UK-England 899 days with LL 4541 posts in Forum
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756 days ago 27 Oct 2007 12:19
And Korea and Vietnam and probably many other countries .
But even though I disagree , I think Admin has fought a good fight and I will make a donation specifically for preventing cruelty during so called clear up operations .
Please remind me of this Admin if I forget over the weekend .
Maybe, write a sad memoir. 
Because i care about animals. 
Bye-bye, friend.
(that means all of YOU that Second guessed Admin)
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